jb107
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Jan 4, 2009 2:49:13 PM
What you believe is up to you but don't force the majority to do
away with a few good things like the 10 commentments for the sake
of a few.
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freedom27
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Calgary
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2008 2:26:28 PM
You are entitled to believe or think however you wish. As an LDS I can only conclude that others are trying to give you religion because they want you to be happier and not self-righteous. Don't we all believe that our own way of thinking is the best?
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hypGnosis
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Missouri
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Message Posted: Oct 26, 2006 12:27:58 PM
KatmanDo & momosity,
Right on!
Of course 'religion' affects the believers a lot more deeply (emotionally) than merely 'doing the right thing', but I concur with you both.
The 'supernatural training wheels' is an interesting aspect. LOL
.
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KatmanDo
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Detroit
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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2006 11:31:50 PM
"are you serious or facetious?"
Lol. It's too sad for words that you need to ask that question - yet I can easily understand where you're coming from.
In my view, religion can be a very useful tool to condition people to behave as they ought to, without regard for what heavenly reward they might get for doing so. However, some folks seem to require those "supernatural training wheels" in order to maintain their balance. Clearly, you don't. If it does turn out there really is an afterlife, that should come as a pleasant bonus to you. If not, oh well. I consider that to be the ultimate in maturity.
Kudos, momo.
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momosity
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Maryland
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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2006 8:48:53 PM
KatmanDo, are you serious or facetious? I'm so cynical at this point I can't tell the difference. I donate blood to people as often as I can get my iron level high enough (I'm a petite woman), and give as much time and love to my wonderful husband and cats as possible. We try to do "Random Acts of Not Being an Asshole" as we can in the DC/MD/VA area.
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KatmanDo
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Detroit
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Message Posted: Oct 23, 2006 11:06:53 PM
"I do nice things for people and animals every chance I get, not to earn brownie points towards some fictional afterlife, but just because it's the right thing to do."
Amen, momo. Sounds like you're on the Right Path. Congratulations.
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momosity
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Message Posted: Oct 23, 2006 10:34:51 PM
How about if we all just "Party On" and "Be Excellent To Each Other"?
Seriously, I'm a happy Athiest and I do nice things for people and animals every chance I get, not to earn brownie points towards some fictional afterlife, but just because it's the right thing to do. Isn't that what TRUE Christians would do if they weren't so busy arguing about how "their God" is the best? It reminds me of schoolchildren ("My Dad can beat up Your Dad"). Whatever. Go volunteer somewhere and leave us Athiests alone, please.
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DiamondFX
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Georgia
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Message Posted: Oct 19, 2006 1:32:16 PM
:clap: :clap: :applaud: :clap: :clap:
as diamondmike stated
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diamondmike
Champion Author
Cleveland
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Message Posted: Aug 21, 2006 9:03:49 AM
Self righteous, blind, arrogant christians! Grow up. Open your eyes! Take off the blinders. I disgust you? Oh well. At least I am not a narrow minded, bigoted so-called christian who can't see past my own little world.
Here is a quarter. Call someone who cares.
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sgm4law
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Maryland
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Message Posted: Jun 17, 2006 2:23:43 PM
And I should add that it is only less intelligent types who don't realize that other people have a right to believe what they believe. Proselytizers only see in black and white and anyone who believes anything other than their belief is a threat to their own religious beliefs...that's why they're so annoying and rude.
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sgm4law
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Maryland
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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2006 2:31:19 PM
I hate to make a blanket statement like "Believers are usually less intelligent" because I know some pretty intelligent, well-schooled, and thoughtful believers.
But when I have had talks with them about their beliefs, they are usually not fundamentalist.
Now if you want to say that fundamentalists are usually less intelligent, I can agree, because these are the people who want rock-hard beliefs that they don't need to trouble themselves thinking about - and they gladly want to share their acquired wisdom with the nonbelievers.
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gmanc
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Austin
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Message Posted: Dec 14, 2005 6:00:13 PM
hypGnosis,
I respect your views. Here's the however, I don't agree with your views, just as u do not agree with mine. I'm sure we will find out the real deal so to speak. I'm sure at that time this conversation of different views won't matter weather u were right or I. Enjoy the peace of mind we have today as tomorrow may never happen. I do know Right Now, the current average price of regular unleaded gas here in Austin. It didn't help me save any money on my car insurance though.
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hypGnosis
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Missouri
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Message Posted: Dec 14, 2005 11:36:09 AM
gmanc,
So you believe (what happens after we die) that your consciousness will continue on, hopefully for eternity.
It's potentially a nice concept, but since there's no evidence to support the notion, I have to come to grips with the reality that before I was conceived, I had no consciousness... and after my demise, the same situation will exist.
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gmanc
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Austin
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Message Posted: Dec 14, 2005 2:04:38 AM
I wouldn't try to convert u or anybody else. When we go, you'll go your way, and i'll go mine. Take Care & God Bless Ya.
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hypGnosis
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Missouri
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Message Posted: Dec 13, 2005 9:02:05 AM
keggar,
I wonder to what degree intelligence is a significant factor.
It seems that there are other reasons why some average-intelligence people abandon reason in favor of 'faith'.
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hypGnosis
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Missouri
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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2005 11:47:00 AM
Crackin6,
I don't know where you come up with that drivel about 'scientific facts in the Bible', but give it a break... you do yourself no good by repeating it.
For example, take a peek at number 5. The author of Isiah was showing how only his god could 'send lightnings'. Science has proven the Bible wrong because humans are now capable of 'sending lightnings'.
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Crackin6
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Texas
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2005 5:23:42 PM
Scientific Facts in the Bible
1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.
3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).
4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).
5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).
6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.
7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."
8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).
9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.
11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."
12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.
13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."
14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.
15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence." (11:3 continued)
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dfabish2
All-Star Author
Austin
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2005 4:57:53 PM
I suspect Crackin6 is repeating a discredited story that he recanted his theory on his deathbed. The truth is that he went to his grave believing in evolution.
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RobDBlackwolf
Sophomore Author
Ohio
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2005 3:04:21 PM
Darwin was actually a believer and he was studying to become a priest.
However, on one seajourney he undertook he suddenly realised (for himself) that his new found understanding of evolution and the like didnt really fit well with what the bible said. And I guess once there is a crack in your belief in the bible and god and you go out to investigate further you distance yourself more and more from it.
Looks to me Darwin "converted" himself away from the bible.
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hempbagmonk
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Hamilton
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2005 12:13:24 PM
“...the Old Testament from its manifestly false history of the world, with the Tower of Babel, the rainbow as a sign, etc., etc., and from its attributing to God the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted that the sacred books of the Hindus, or the beliefs of any barbarian.”-Charles Darwin
Doesn't sound to me like he didn't believe it. Try again.
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hypGnosis
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Missouri
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Message Posted: Dec 7, 2005 1:15:12 PM
Crackin6,
Is that your opinion or are you repeating something you read or heard?
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RobDBlackwolf
Sophomore Author
Ohio
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Message Posted: Dec 7, 2005 11:59:34 AM
Crackin6: Erm... IF he didnt, why did he then publish it?
Please elaborate your statement: Where you got the info from, etc.
Because I think thats purely nonsense.
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Crackin6
Rookie Author
Texas
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Message Posted: Dec 7, 2005 9:09:46 AM
Darwin didnt even believe in his evolution theory
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BAKERJJ1
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Lansing
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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2005 5:38:55 PM
Talking to a Jehovah's witness one time, I asked him, Roger what would you do if the lord himself came down and said; Roger you are wrong. And the lord proves to you he is the one true God...What would you say then Roger? He paused and then said, well I wouldn't believe him....
The need to believe what he believes is very strong in that one...
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BAKERJJ1
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Lansing
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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2005 5:32:59 PM
Two guys standing together both looking up at the starry night, one guy says its so beautiful I am certain there is a god, the second guy says its so amazing, I'm certain there is no god because the universe is way more complicated than any teachings of an earthly/heavenly god as described so far.....Neither man is capable of discerning the true nature of the universe but both are positive they know...And they both need to believe what they believe. Try reasoning with someone who needs to believe what they believe...Any contradictory facts presented will not weaken their focus on believing, no matter what..
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tarlos25
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Nevada
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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2005 7:29:22 PM
ccf_jeff - "I guess you were speaking more on the hypothetical or philosophical level to make a point rather than stating your actual beliefs."
Correct. I do tend to use hypotheticals quite a bit when I'm explaining viewpoints. I find it useful to see things from a different viewpoint, it helps me better explain and understand my own views.
"I'm joking around a little here, but it really does seem a lot more plausible to say that "I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me that there is a God" than it is to say "I am absolutely convinced that there is no God.""
Absolute is such a powerful word. That implies that there is no room for change. While I am set in my belief, I wouldn't say it's absolute. Something like 99.99%, rather than 100%. I don't want to be absolute in my thinking, because that leaves no flexibility, and limits my ability to accept others. If I were absolutely convinced in my religion, then to me, everyone who believes otherwise MUST be wrong, at least, to me. So I would see them as either misinformed/misguided, ignorant, or lying.
"BTW, sorry it took me so long to get back to you."
No big deal, I've been really busy these last few days. I've got to get ahead on some projects, since I'm going on vacation soon.
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ccf_jeff
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St. Louis
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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2005 6:26:01 PM
ccf_jeff - "I get the feeling you probably fall into the agnostic category."
tarlos25: No, I'm an Atheist.
===========
That surprises me a bit since you seemed to hedge your bets a bit saying things like "If there is a God..." (paraphrasing here, of course). I guess you were speaking more on the hypothetical or philosophical level to make a point rather than stating your actual beliefs. Not that it's a big issue or anything, just that I mistakenly figured you were more of an agnostic. I guess that's why it's good to ask rather than to make assumptions. ;)
It does seem, though, that a true atheistic opinion is harder to defend than an agnostic one. In fact it's impossible to "prove" a negative (God does not exist) so it would seem to me that your belief (that there is no God) is in fact an article of faith. ;)
I'm joking around a little here, but it really does seem a lot more plausible to say that "I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me that there is a God" than it is to say "I am absolutely convinced that there is no God."
BTW, sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to answer me in detail.
I'll try to get back to you on the rest of your post a little later.
Thanks again.
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Rebel666
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Colorado Springs
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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2005 3:26:52 PM
Tarlos25 you are my new best friend! You broke that down wonderfully.
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tarlos25
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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2005 11:16:52 AM
ccf_jeff - "I get the feeling you probably fall into the agnostic category."
No, I'm an Atheist.
"I am not sure where the morals aspect would flow from"
As you stated, it could be from a religious background (my entire family is Christian) or from something ingrained in me. I'm sure that some of my morals are from seeing my family having those same morals.
"perhaps even be consistent with atheism."
Atheism doesn't state anything regarding morals. It doesn't say you should have them, or that you shouldn't. Your moral system is for you to define, hopefully within the laws of society.
"If there is no real overarching meaning to life, and there is no inherent value in human beings other than what benefits we might be able to derive from them, then it would seem to be a survival of the fittest, get what you can from those weaker than yourself type of game."
It can be viewed that way. I choose not to. To me, every human being has an intrinsic value. Whether they benefit me directly or not is irrelevant. They are a human, and therefore have as many rights and deserve as much respect as I do (until they prove otherwise). Now, I'm certainly not in support of a socialist/communist system, those would only work in a completely ideal situation, which is almost impossible, considering human nature. I certainly prefer our system, basically one of being rewarded for your efforts and results.
"I realize that that is not your philosophy at all, but am curious as to how you got your moral standard and how it fits into an atheistic(?) worldview. Do you think if is consistent with atheism or naturally flows from it in some way, or do you see them as two completely separate things that don't really intereact with each other?"
I don't see them as interacting at all.
"Sorry if I am coming across kind of strong or being offensive in any way. That is certainly not my intent, but it is a point of curiousity for me."
Not at all, your curiosity is showing well.
"Perhaps I am also getting ahead of myself in assuming that humans necessarily hold no special place in an atheistic worldview."
I think the big mistake in your assumption is calling it an Atheistic worldview. For me at least, Atheism doesn't define my world. It defines the lack of an afterlife and divine influence. The world is for me to define.
"Once again that is something that would seem to naturally flow from believing that we all got here via the random chance of mass and energy colliding and interacting in whatever ways that would happen to cause us to come into being regardless of how many billions of millenia that might have taken to happen."
To me, that's part of the beauty and wonder of the world. All of the interactions that work so marvelously and make such a great place to live.
"From my standpoint, it would seem that if everything is pretty much a chance collection of molecules and atoms etc. that have coagulated or whatever for lack of a better term into the beings or formations that we are, then a human being really has no more inherent worth than an elephant, or perhaps even some amazing rock crystal in the grand scheme of things."
In a grand scheme, I think that, at this time, humans are fairly insignificant. There's a whole universe out there, and there may very well be life somewhere else in the universe. Of course, due to the low probability of life occuring "randomly," Earth may be the only place in the universe with life. Now, I do value humans higher than other life forms. Probably mostly because I am a human. Other life forms are important as well. They have their own right to live, and are part of an ecosystem that keeps humans alive.
"Of course, maybe human beings might be of more value to you or to me than a cat or a rock or whatever, but it would seem to me if there is no God, then there probably is really no difference in the inherent value of one over another. It would really boil down to utility. Which is more useful to me. Am I missing something, or does that sound halfway reasonable to you."
That's a reasonable conclusion. But it depends on the individual. I could simplify things into how useful they are to me, but I wouldn't enjoy life as much then.
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ccf_jeff
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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2005 10:37:58 PM
Hi tarlos25,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Hopefully we can have a bit of a dialogue without setting off too many people. This is the first time I've popped into the "religion forums" and noticed a post or two of yours in the Christian forum. It looked like you were a pretty agreeable reasonable fellow.
I don't think I'm the "preachy sort", but then we often look different to someone else than we do through our own eyes.
Anyway, before we get too far into it, perhaps you could let me know whether you consider yourself an atheist or an agnostic. As I understand the terms an agnostic just isn't sure whether there is a God or not and an atheist is pretty much absolutely sure there isn't.
I get the feeling you probably fall into the agnostic category.
Sorry about getting into the categorization mode, but I guess it just helps me to see where you are "coming from" a little better.
A few of your comments were interesting to me. For instnace:
"I go with the first, there is no meaning to life. We're here, just enjoy it. However, that doesn't mean I'm without morals or goals."
I would guess those sentiments are typical for most atheists &/or agnostics and yet I am not sure where the morals aspect would flow from or perhaps even be consistent with atheism. As a Christian, I would be tempted to speculate that it was some combination of a carryover effect from a religious background, even if a weak one which carried over from parents who had been at least influenced by some religion or other, &/or from what we would contend is the commandments written in our heart by God. Sort of an inborn "instinct" for goodness. I imagine you have other ideas about it, but it does not seem to me to naturally flow from atheism.
Perhaps you can disabuse me of some misunderstandings I have, but it would seem to me that an atheistic worldview would tend towards a Nietzschean philosophy. If there is no real overarching meaning to life, and there is no inherent value in human beings other than what benefits we might be able to derive from them, then it would seem to be a survival of the fittest, get what you can from those weaker than yourself type of game.
I realize that that is not your philosophy at all, but am curious as to how you got your moral standard and how it fits into an atheistic(?) worldview. Do you think if is consistent with atheism or naturally flows from it in some way, or do you see them as two completely separate things that don't really intereact with each other?
Sorry if I am coming across kind of strong or being offensive in any way. That is certainly not my intent, but it is a point of curiousity for me.
Perhaps I am also getting ahead of myself in assuming that humans necessarily hold no special place in an atheistic worldview. Once again that is something that would seem to naturally flow from believing that we all got here via the random chance of mass and energy colliding and interacting in whatever ways that would happen to cause us to come into being regardless of how many billions of millenia that might have taken to happen.
Human beings and all life forms for that matter are obviously exceptionally complex works of art, but then again even snowflakes are unique, and natural wonders such as the Grand Canyon or Niagra Falls etc. are also complex and extremely beautiful works of art. From my standpoint, it would seem that if everything is pretty much a chance collection of molecules and atoms etc. that have coagulated or whatever for lack of a better term into the beings or formations that we are, then a human being really has no more inherent worth than an elephant, or perhaps even some amazing rock crystal in the grand scheme of things.
Of course, maybe human beings might be of more value to you or to me than a cat or a rock or whatever, but it would seem to me if there is no God, then there probably is really no difference in the inherent value of one over another. It would really boil down to utility. Which is more useful to me. Am I missing something, or does that sound halfway reasonable to you.
BTW, sorry to have started a discussion on a Friday, when I'm going to be away from the computer over the weekend, but hopefully you won't mind sharing your thoughts with me anyway and maybe some others might be able to learn a little from your responses as well.
Thank you for your time and your input.
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tarlos25
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Nevada
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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2005 9:40:13 PM
ccf_jeff - "I'm hoping &/or (a) fellow "non-believer(s)" will indulge in a little dialogue with this Christian."
I'm always glad to have a conversation with someone. If it gets a bit uncomfortable in here for you, and you want a deeper conversation, feel free to email me sometime, tarlos25@gmail.com. Just don't start preaching too hard at me and I'm fine. My wife is Christian, so I'm used to people trying to convert me a little bit, as long as it is done respectfully, and I'm not pushed.
"I'm a little curious as to your juxtaposition above of being happy with things as they are and yet describing this world as a veritable living hell with a never ending pain and suffering and a never beginning peace."
I think there's a little too much generalization there. Personally, I'm happy with my life as it is. If I can improve it somehow, great. I'm not going to stick with things as they are for the sheer sake of stability. I'm also not going to change for the sheer sake of change. However, the world, in general, is not always a happy place. It really depends on what you focus on. We have pollution, disease, suffering, poverty, strife, etc. Yes, the world can be a downright miserable place. But there are lots of happy people in the world. Not everyone has to breath unclean air or drink dirty water. Not everyone is sick. Not everyone is suffering. Not everyone is poor. Not everyone is in war. As to the overall state of the world, that depends on who is looking at it. I think we could do a lot better, but I see progress.
"Anyway, sorry to bore you with my drawn out ramblings, but I guess I am curious as to what an atheist might think about my crude ideas on the possible "meaning to life", or is there one? If not, doesn't that take a lot of the fun out of life?"
I go with the first, there is no meaning to life. We're here, just enjoy it. However, that doesn't mean I'm without morals or goals. I have goals in my life, some well-defined, some more abstract. I've met several of them already. I have my own moral code that I follow. This doesn't take any fun out of life. It actually (in my opinion) allows me to more fully enjoy life. I'm not concerned with meeting somebody's expectations, I'm not concerned with what happens when I die. If there is a god of any sort, and there is an afterlife, then I'll be judged as necessary then. If I'm rewarded with eternal happiness, great. If the god sees fit to punish me with eternal hell or whatever, then so be it. I will accept whatever the consequences of my life are, because a god that doesn't accept my way of life is not a god I want to spend eternity with.
""Having fun" and a hedonistic lifestyle does seem "fun" for awhile, but from what I can tell it seems that the fun tends to wear off over time. It does not really seem fulfilling in and of itself."
Agreed.
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ccf_jeff
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St. Louis
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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2005 6:49:06 PM
Rebel666
Colorado Springs:
... I am Atheist. I am happy as an Atheist. ... I believe that when I die I will be worm food, that is all. ... Actually, the world we live in today is hell. There will never be peace and there will always be pain and suffering. I don't understand why people mourn constantly for a "savior" when we should all be out being happy. I am happy the way I am, all of my Atheist friends (including my boyfriend) are happy, actually they seem a lot happier than the Christians I know.
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Hi Rebel,
I can see that you are upset with all the Christians coming in and bothering you when you want to be alone, but I'm hoping &/or (a) fellow "non-believer(s)" will indulge in a little dialogue with this Christian.
I'm a little curious as to your juxtaposition above of being happy with things as they are and yet describing this world as a veritable living hell with a never ending pain and suffering and a never beginning peace.
Forgive me if I note that it sounds a lot like the bumper stickers & shirts that say "Life Sucks and then You Die". That's not a criticism, just an observation.
Hopefully you won't mind if I share a little of my own search for truth and the meaning to life from a few (10+) years back.
I was raised as a "cradle Catholic" but started to drift away from the faith about the tail end of my Junior year in high school. A lot of that may have been the result of being drawn towards the whole "sex drugs and rock & roll" life style, but perhaps some of it is just that time of life when kids have to try and figure everything out on their own rather than taking whatever they are given by their parents for granted.
I was gradually starting to doubt the whole "God thing" as described in the Bible as I never saw any of those wild miracles and things that are so common in the Bible. I never really rejected my faith outright, but I certainly didn't live it and I began to entertain other possibilities as well.
It seemed to me that there did need to be a God, or at least some "First Cause" of everything. Otherwise where did everything come from? On the other hand, if there was a God, why didn't he reveal himself more clearly? Would he really reveal himself in person, perform many miracles, have his disciples write the bible and then disappear from the world with virtually no other trace for many centuries?
I newver really thought things through completely, but I think I gradually came to the opinion that God did create everything but that he was like the watchmaker that made everything and then wound it up and after that it pretty much just ran on its own without any external intervention. I believe that is what is called Deism.
But I don't think I believed in that very strongly.
At that point I think I was drifting along pretty much following the path of least resistance, which tends towards a hedonistic lifestyle in my opinion.
It seemed to me that there were 3 possible ideas that might in fact be the true "meaning to life".
The first was that there *is* no meaning to life. If that is the case, the way to live one's life is to have as much fun as you can until you die. For some people that might mean bring on the "sex, drugs & rock & roll", for others it might include delayed gratification. Studying and working hard now might be a reasonable way to maximize pleasure and enjoyment even if that might come a few years down the road. To my mind, that philosophy could loosely be translated into that bumper sticker that says "Whoever dies with the most toys wins"
The second philosophy that to my mind might have qualified as the true "meaning to life" would have been some sort of Darwinian varient of "Survival of the Fittest". In that worldview, the main goal is to have as many viable offspring as you can to carry on your genes. Roughly translated a bumper sticker codifying that philosophy might read something like "Whoever has the most kids wins"
The third and final option vying for the title to the "real meaning to life" was some sort of religious meaning. For me that would probably mean Christianity and the faith that I was raised in.
At the time I either wasn't in the mood or was unable to sort through things, those were just some ideas bubbling around in the back of my head. Psychologists might say that I lacked "maturational readiness", but for whatever reason I just kinda-sorta decided to "straddle the fence" three ways. I probably figured that way, no matter what the "real" meaning to life was I wouldn't be too far off.
I decided I would have as much fun as I could, have a reasonable number of kids to carry on the "survival of the fittest" thing, though I put that off for some unspecified future time, and I also decided not do anything drastically evil, such as murder anyone, so that if there really was a God I hopefully wouldn't go to hell.
I guess that's a fairly reasonable way to live if you don't really have any sure convictions about the meaning to life. I had kind of covered my bases for whatever came. Even if there was no God, at least I was having a "good time", and hopefully I would have enough children to carry on my genetic code. On the other hand, if there *was* a God, at least I wasn't some murderer or adulter who was obviously destined for hell.
Unfortunately, I imagine that in the back of my mind I knew that living that way was not really compatible with being a good Christian. Living a "minimalist" Christian life isn't really living as a Christian.
Even more unsettling was that I just wasn't really happy. It seems to me that trying to be happy by pursuing happiness for its own sake is a little like trying to "hurry up and sleep". It will tend to elude you. For me I think I felt an emptiness. An emptiness that Christians might describe as a God-shaped vacuum. I think that is what St. Augustine meant when he wrote his famous "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you."
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Anyway, sorry to bore you with my drawn out ramblings, but I guess I am curious as to what an atheist might think about my crude ideas on the possible "meaning to life", or is there one? If not, doesn't that take a lot of the fun out of life?
"Having fun" and a hedonistic lifestyle does seem "fun" for awhile, but from what I can tell it seems that the fun tends to wear off over time. It does not really seem fulfilling in and of itself. I look at the rock stars, the sports stars and the hollywood stars who all seem to have the world by the tail and yet many seem to have unhappy unfulfilled lives. It is kind of amazing to me how many have committed suicide.
I don't know, maybe they're dysfunctional, or have a chemical imbalance or something, and yet it seems so remarkably common among the rich and famous that it makes me wonder all the more if there mustn't really be more to life than what we see here. If that is truly all there is and those who have everything they could possibly need are not happy what chance is there for the average joe who can't afford such luxuries? What about the hundreds of millions of people who can't read or who can't get decent housing or health care or perhaps not even enough to eat?
Your thoughts?
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Rebel666
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Colorado Springs
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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2005 6:41:57 PM
Sorry, I meant it to abbierivers only. I had another sentence written and I didn't delete it completely.
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tarlos25
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Nevada
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Message Posted: Nov 10, 2005 6:55:12 PM
Rebel666 - "Just by replying like so, you acted holier-than-thou. What disgusts me are people like you, tarlos25"
I'm sorry, but I don't see that in my reply. Please explain.
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Rebel666
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Colorado Springs
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Message Posted: Nov 10, 2005 6:44:11 PM
Just by replying like so, you acted holier-than-thou. What disgusts me are people like you, tarlos25 and abbierivers, you came into this forum and ranted how we are wrong. This is a forum for Atheists, not Christians. I'll say it again, I don't care if Jesus loves me because I don't love him back. I'm not going to hell because it is only an imaginary place you created. If I'm not mistaken, the world we live in is hell enough. Let me ask you Christians this since you cannot keep yourselves out of a forum not based on YOU, YOU, YOU. Does the Bible, which means book in Latin (a fictional book), say anything about dinosaurs? What about the cavemen? How old is the Earth rally? Science will prevail.
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tarlos25
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Message Posted: Nov 10, 2005 4:36:27 PM
abbierivers, I believe the disgust is for the holier-than-thou types. They tend to treat any non-Christians as ignorant, sub-human creatures. So yes, they are disgusting. And yes, it is offensive to be told how you are wrong, and you are going to Hell because you don't believe in the correct deity.
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#12#_abbierivers
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Nashville
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Message Posted: Nov 10, 2005 4:27:25 PM
I AM A CHRISTIAN and i don't shove my beliefs down anyones throat... if you want me to share what i know i will if not. i just pray for you. i am a very happy christian. but what puzzles me is the part where you say it "disgusts" you??? i don't know the Christians you know but We believe God is Love and he gave his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins so we may live eternity in heaven. with no sadness, no pain, no sickness, no anger. Only peace, love and Joy. So what part of sharing a loving peaceful belief. That promises nothing but good things and gives hope to the world that this isn't all there is.."DISGUSTS YOU"???? now if they are pulling out their eye balls and showing them to you or eating bugs, or throwing up on you or something nasty like that i understand... but if they are just trying to Share the love of Jesus Christ with you be happy that someone cares enough about you that they don't just worry about your life here in the present. but they care about your eternity as well. weather you think there is one or not. like you said your not trying to force them to believe there isn't one right. so just be kind say thanks for caring about me. and move on. don't be disgusted... Try living in a country where God,Love,Joy and Hope doesn't exist. then you'll be disgusted. Jesus loves you. May God bless you and keep you..
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Toadman7
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2005 10:28:34 PM
These people who try to convert others to believe in what they believe in is just trying to conveince themselves what they believe in right.
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t325
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Missouri
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2005 8:16:31 PM
Rebel666, you are extremley right. I hate it when people try to convert me. Living in a small, midwestern redneck town, it happens all too often.
To all Christains: I don't shove my beliefs on you, you don't shove your beliefs on me.
ViperPit and MsTruth: Get the hell out of the atheist forum. You obviously aren't atheists, and your only purpose here is to dehumanize and convert us. You don't see us in the christain forum pushing our beliefs on you. Just stay the hell out of here if you don't have anything productive to add to the conversation. It's bad enough I couldn't even eat a meal at Denny's without someone trying to convert me. I at least expect religious freedom in a forum dedicated to atheists.
[Edited by: t325 at 11/8/2005 8:22:45 PM EST]
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Rebel666
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Colorado Springs
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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2005 3:57:49 PM
To MsTruth:
Which god loves me, Jesus Christ is just a carpenter and I personally don't like carpenters. I love my family, my pets, my boyfriend, and yes, I do love my car. I don't love anybody else, including this god you talk about. I haven't gone through any hard times, I've actually had a really great life, and I tend to share my positive attitude with the people close to me. You don't know me so you don't know my past, yes I am a rebel but it is because it is in my blood, my family genes. I choose to not believe because there is nothing to believe in, except for myself. I believe I can do great things without needing a god to support me.
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MsTruth
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Arkansas
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Message Posted: Nov 6, 2005 10:56:40 PM
Rebel666, I do agree with you that the world is full of pain and suffering, it will continue to be that way and will only get worse, you are definately a rebel, but there is still hope for you, know matter how hard your life has been, God never intended for you to go through the things that you have, those things have made your heart hard, I just hope some how you see how much God loves you and He has provided eternal life for you through Jesus Christ.
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MrCyclist
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St. Louis
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Message Posted: Nov 6, 2005 1:33:46 AM
"what discust me is people who don't believe in God! "
Would that be your god, the god, a god, the gods, Zeus, Allah, Budda, ...Satan?
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sparrowbutt
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Grand Rapids
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2005 10:43:10 PM
SWALLEN
I don't think that would change things at all regardless of who God is. I believe there is only one God. However, I think the unbeliever takes a bigger risk if I am right in my thinking.
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MrCyclist
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2005 12:49:27 PM
"I am a Christian and believe in God. If I am wrong, and you are right, I have wasted a lot of energy, endured persecution and belittling from those of you who do not believe, etc.
On the other hand, If I am right, you stand to lose more. Therefore I will continue on the path I am on.
Have a good day! "
Assuming we are to be judged on our faith rather than our actions.
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swallen
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Detroit
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2005 9:48:39 AM
sparrow200261, you've forgotten to take one thing in to account. What if the god you are praying to is the wrong god?
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sparrowbutt
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Grand Rapids
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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2005 11:05:40 PM
I am a Christian and believe in God. If I am wrong, and you are right, I have wasted a lot of energy, endured persecution and belittling from those of you who do not believe, etc.
On the other hand, If I am right, you stand to lose more. Therefore I will continue on the path I am on.
Have a good day!
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Rebel666
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Colorado Springs
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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2005 5:16:06 PM
I'm so happy to see that I'm not the only one with this opinion. Bible passages, pills, you all brought up good points. Thank you. We should all play nice.
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tarlos25
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Nevada
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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2005 9:59:53 AM
ToledoLaw05 - "There will never be peace and there will always be pain and suffering"
Many reasons. There aren't enough pain pills to keep everyone happy all the time, and not everyone would take them even if there were enough. And there are too many people in the world, so there are too many different ideas. Statistically, there will be opposing ideas, and some of the people with opposing ideas will be violent. So there will not be peace. Peace can exist in a localized area. The size of that area will grow as our society grows and matures. Eventually, we may be able to get the whole world to reach a state of peace. By then though, we'll probably be colonizing other planets, maybe even have people beyond the solar system.
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ToledoLaw05
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Toledo
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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2005 9:16:56 AM
There will never be peace and there will always be pain and suffering
Why is this?
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tarlos25
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Message Posted: Nov 2, 2005 3:57:26 PM
As much as I agree with you, they are required by their faith (at least, the Christians are) to try to convert you. Now granted, most "Christians" aren't very Christian, but too many people think their faith is right, and anything different is wrong. As to how much difference can be tolerated, that varies by individual.
One of my big complaint is the method by which they try to convert me. Many start throwing Bible passages that say I should do this or that. If I don't follow your religion, why should I care what the Bible says? It's been done before, repeatedly, and obviously hasn't worked yet. If you're going to convert me, don't piss me off.
My other complaint is that some people think it must be science OR religion. It's not an either-or issue. Both can exist just fine (except with direct contradiction, but those aren't all that common).
Anyway, I agree with you. Everyone should just play nice and be happy.
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